Discussion:
What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
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Xah Lee
2009-03-05 05:08:14 UTC
Permalink
What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
my fav is Emacs Lisp.

Because it is practical. More or less the most widely used lisp today.

Considered as a tool, it has probably some 10 times more users than
either Common Lisp or Scheme Lisp.

For example, i consider emacs lisp, more powerful than Perl, as a text
processing language, for 2 major reasons: (1) It has buffer datatype
and associated datatypes such as point, marker, region, etc.. Which is
more powerful than treating text as inert chars and lines, which Perl,
Python, Ruby, etc do. (2) elisp's integrated nature with emacs. This
means, for odd text manipulation jobs that happens daily in every
software coding, i can write text processing programs that interact
with me while i edit.

The above paragraph, details why i love emacs lisp. However, it is not
so much about lisp language's nature. I find nothing in particular of
lisp lang's features of emacs lisp that made me love emacs lisp, other
than it being a functional language. It's more about how it happens
that emacs has a embedded lang and that happens to be a lisp. It is
not difficult to have another language, or a new editor with a embeded
lang that functions similar to emacs, or a editor with a engine that
supports multiple langs. However, emacs just happens to be almost the
only one, or the most prominent one. (i am a expert in Microsoft Word
in early 1990s, and although i haven't ventured into its Visual Basic,
but i know it can do scripting. I'm sure, now after almost 20 years,
and with Microsoft's “.NET”, it possibly might compete with emacs with
its elisp, but i know nothing about it to comment further. (i'd very
much welcome any comment from someone who are a expert of scripting
Microsoft Word with Visual Basic; on how it compares to emacs, if at
all. (if you don't have say 1 year of full-time experience in this,
please spare me your motherfucking drivel)))

As to the reason i am not a fan of the 2 other major lisps: Common
Lisp and Scheme Lisp. These 2, are little used in the industry. Common
Lisp is a moribund dinosaur. Scheme Lisp is little used and is
confined to Academia. There is nothing in these 2 langs that i
consider elegant or powerful today. I would, in a blink of a eye,
consider Mathematica, OCaml, Haskell, erlang, far more elegant or
powerful.

I would like to see Common Lisp and or Scheme Lisp die a miserable,
horrid, deaths, due to fanaticism as exhibited by Common Lisp and
Scheme Lisp regulars in newsgroups. I consider these 2 langs not only
impractical and inelegant, but their people are the hog of any
possible progress of lisp in general.

See also:

• Language, Purity, Cult, and Deception
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/lang_purity_cult_deception.html

I do consider lisp, or the lisp way, a lang with lisp characteristics,
can be the most beautiful, elegant language. (in fact, i consider
Mathematica being one such example) However, given the social milieu
of the 3 major lisp communities: Common Lisp, Scheme Lisp, Emacs Lisp,
it might happen when pigs fly.

--------------

Of the existing lisps, especially new ones, i support NewLisp, and i
also support Clojure. Personally, i'm not likely to invest time in
them in the next 5 years, if ever. Second to these, i mildly support
Qi.

I was a avid fan of functional programing, and was a big fan of lisp
too. Lisp, even just 10 years ago, was still a great language, almost
the only one that are much better than all others, in both practical
industry use and also academic theoretical considerations. But due to
the rapid development of software technologies and vast number of lang
today that happened in the past decade, including a profusion of
quality functional langs, i see little point in lisp.

See also:

• Proliferation of Computing Languages
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/new_langs.html

Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/


Kenneth Tilton
2009-03-05 05:27:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xah Lee
What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
my fav is Emacs Lisp.
Because it is practical. More or less the most widely used lisp today.
So you think the Amsterdam 737 was being flown by Emacs Lisp? Pilot
keychord error? Maybe it was a perfect landing in the wrong buffer...

hth,kt
Javier
2009-03-05 08:44:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth Tilton
Post by Xah Lee
What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
my fav is Emacs Lisp.
Because it is practical. More or less the most widely used lisp today.
So you think the Amsterdam 737 was being flown by Emacs Lisp? Pilot
keychord error? Maybe it was a perfect landing in the wrong buffer...
You shut up and read Xah Lee more carefully, he has expressed very
expert and interesting thoughts. ;)
Xah Lee
2009-03-05 05:29:00 UTC
Permalink
... I was a avid fan of functional programing
Correction: I _am_. Still am.

The essay is now clearned up a bit and archived at:

http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/whats_your_fav_lisp.html

Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/


Javier
2009-03-05 08:43:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xah Lee
What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
my fav is Emacs Lisp.
Because it is practical. More or less the most widely used lisp today.
Interesting.
Do you actually consider yourself an Emacs expert?
Post by Xah Lee
Considered as a tool, it has probably some 10 times more users than
either Common Lisp or Scheme Lisp.
For example, i consider emacs lisp, more powerful than Perl, as a text
processing language,
Oh, I think no people has ever done any comparative of these two
languages. Are you preparing a more in deep comparative or something
like that? I truly would like to read your expert opinion, apart from
Post by Xah Lee
for 2 major reasons: (1) It has buffer datatype
and associated datatypes such as point, marker, region, etc.. Which is
more powerful than treating text as inert chars and lines, which Perl,
Python, Ruby, etc do. (2) elisp's integrated nature with emacs. This
means, for odd text manipulation jobs that happens daily in every
software coding, i can write text processing programs that interact
with me while i edit.
The above paragraph, details why i love emacs lisp.
That's nice.
Post by Xah Lee
However, it is not
so much about lisp language's nature. I find nothing in particular of
lisp lang's features of emacs lisp that made me love emacs lisp, other
than it being a functional language.
Do you think Emacs Lisp is probably the most functional Lisp of all the
Lisps?
Post by Xah Lee
It's more about how it happens
that emacs has a embedded lang and that happens to be a lisp. It is
not difficult to have another language, or a new editor with a embeded
lang that functions similar to emacs, or a editor with a engine that
supports multiple langs. However, emacs just happens to be almost the
only one, or the most prominent one. (i am a expert in Microsoft Word
in early 1990s, and although i haven't ventured into its Visual Basic,
but i know it can do scripting. I'm sure, now after almost 20 years,
and with Microsoft's “.NET”, it possibly might compete with emacs with
its elisp, but i know nothing about it to comment further. (i'd very
much welcome any comment from someone who are a expert of scripting
Microsoft Word with Visual Basic; on how it compares to emacs, if at
all. (if you don't have say 1 year of full-time experience in this,
please spare me your motherfucking drivel)))
Oh this is very boring, please forget Microsoft Word.
Post by Xah Lee
As to the reason i am not a fan of the 2 other major lisps: Common
Lisp and Scheme Lisp. These 2, are little used in the industry.
I didn't know. Thank you for the advise.
Post by Xah Lee
Common
Lisp is a moribund dinosaur.
This is very interesting.
Post by Xah Lee
Scheme Lisp is little used and is
confined to Academia. There is nothing in these 2 langs that i
consider elegant or powerful today. I would, in a blink of a eye,
consider Mathematica, OCaml, Haskell, erlang, far more elegant or
powerful.
What are your experiences with those languages?
Post by Xah Lee
I would like to see Common Lisp and or Scheme Lisp die a miserable,
horrid, deaths, due to fanaticism as exhibited by Common Lisp and
Scheme Lisp regulars in newsgroups.
Oh this is definitively not going to like people here.
Post by Xah Lee
I consider these 2 langs not only
impractical and inelegant, but their people are the hog of any
possible progress of lisp in general.
As I see your page, have you done any study on this phenomena?
Post by Xah Lee
• Language, Purity, Cult, and Deception
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/lang_purity_cult_deception.html
I do consider lisp, or the lisp way, a lang with lisp characteristics,
can be the most beautiful, elegant language. (in fact, i consider
Mathematica being one such example) However, given the social milieu
of the 3 major lisp communities: Common Lisp, Scheme Lisp, Emacs Lisp,
it might happen when pigs fly.
Do you have any ideas on how to achieve that elegance?
Post by Xah Lee
--------------
Of the existing lisps, especially new ones, i support NewLisp, and i
also support Clojure. Personally, i'm not likely to invest time in
them in the next 5 years, if ever. Second to these, i mildly support
Qi.
It is nice to see you supports... I'll have a glance to those languages.
Post by Xah Lee
I was a avid fan of functional programing, and was a big fan of lisp
too. Lisp, even just 10 years ago, was still a great language, almost
the only one that are much better than all others, in both practical
industry use and also academic theoretical considerations. But due to
the rapid development of software technologies and vast number of lang
today that happened in the past decade, including a profusion of
quality functional langs, i see little point in lisp.
• Proliferation of Computing Languages
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/new_langs.html
Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/

Thanks for your nice opinion.
Xah Lee
2009-03-05 21:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Javier
Interesting.
Do you actually consider yourself an Emacs expert?
Using emacs daily, pretty much whole day, since about late 1998.
Learning & coding elisp on and off seriously, since 2006.
Written many text processing scripts, a major mode
(• Emacs xlsl-mode for Linden Scripting Language
http://xahlee.org/sl/ls-emacs.html
), and written a book on emacs and elisp.

• Xah's Emacs Tutorial
http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs.html

I am a emacs expert. I'm also a elisp expert in the context of
programing industry. But when compared to dedicated emacs developers,
i'm rather a beginner. For example, some corners of elisp i still
don't understand quite well: its display mechanism, faces, overlay,
windows and frames, events loop.
Post by Javier
Post by Xah Lee
For example, i consider emacs lisp, more powerful than Perl, as a text
processing language,
Oh, I think no people has ever done any comparative of these two
languages. Are you preparing a more in deep comparative or
something like that? I truly would like to read your expert
opinion, ...
See:

• Text Processing: Elisp vs Perl
http://xahlee.org/emacs/elisp_text_processing_lang.html
Post by Javier
Do you think Emacs Lisp is probably the most functional Lisp of
all the Lisps? What are your experiences with those languages?
As I see your page, have you done any study on this phenomena?
Do you have any ideas on how to achieve that elegance?
you have also lots of one-sentence questions. You will find some
answers here:

http://xahlee.org/emacs/emacs_essays_index.html

which is a index page of collection of essays related to emacs. About
15 of them, are related to lisp in general. Each page usually has
“Related Essays” links at the bottom that takes you to other essays on
the topic, giving you more detail, or covering other aspects.

I recommend to start with the following, more quality ones:

• Fundamental Problems of Lisp
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/lisp_problems.html

• The Concepts and Confusions of Prefix, Infix, Postfix and Fully
Nested Notations
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/notations.html

• What are OOP's Jargons and Complexities
http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t2/oop.html
Post by Javier
Thanks for your nice opinion.
Thank you. I enjoy teaching.

Xah
∑ http://xahlee.org/


Jon Harrop
2009-03-05 21:33:01 UTC
Permalink
Do any open source Lisp implementations have concurrent GCs?
--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy Ltd.
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/?u
André Thieme
2009-03-05 21:48:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Harrop
Do any open source Lisp implementations have concurrent GCs?
I am not sure if Clojure has one right now, but in 1-2 months
Java 6 Update 14 will appear and get one feature from Java 7 that
was found to be mature and stable enough: the G1 Garbage Collector:
http://research.sun.com/jtech/pubs/04-g1-paper-ismm.pdf


André
--
Lisp is not dead. It’s just the URL that has changed:
http://clojure.org/
William D Clinger
2009-03-18 20:31:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by André Thieme
Post by Jon Harrop
Do any open source Lisp implementations have concurrent GCs?
I am not sure if Clojure has one right now, but in 1-2 months
Java 6 Update 14 will appear and get one feature from Java 7 that
was found to be mature and stable enough: the G1 Garbage Collector:http://research.sun.com/jtech/pubs/04-g1-paper-ismm.pdf
Gambit already has a soft real-time GC, and Ypsilon has a parallel
GC (but I'm not sure whether it's concurrent). I know of others
under development, and there are likely to be some I don't know
about.

Will

Elena
2009-03-18 19:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xah Lee
What open source implementation of Lisp do you prefer and why?
my fav is Emacs Lisp.
Because it is practical.
I agree. And it just works, on many many platforms. Full IDE (debugger/
stepper included): perfect for beginners. Plenty of libraries: useful
to advanced users.
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